Tony Bellew on Joshua vs Dubois, British boxing’s rising stars and Everton takeover

Speaking to InstantCasino.com, former WBC cruiserweight champion Tony Bellew opened up on Anthony Joshua’s fifth round KO defeat to Daniel Dubois at Wembley Stadium.

‘The Bomber’ also spoke about British boxing’s next big stars who will succeed the likes of Joshua and Dubois, including Ben Whittaker and Hamzah Sheeraz.

Bellew discussed his beloved Everton Football Club’s proposed takeover and looked back on a memorable albatross during the BMW PGA Championship Celebrity Pro-Am at Wentworth.

See the full interview below:

Question: Do you think Dubois learned from what happened against Hrgović when he came out slowly and was eating heavy shots, wasn’t he? He didn’t want that to happen this time. He took the centre of the ring straight away, looked to dominate the fight. 

A: “He did, but he took an awful lot more off Filip Hrgović than with Joshua. He just didn’t let his hands go and that’s the top and bottom of it really. If Anthony Joshua meets him head on and lets his hands go, it’s George Foreman and Ron Lyle all over again but I’ll tell you something, it’s over even quicker. I think that benefits Anthony Joshua but obviously, he didn’t feel the same. His team didn’t feel the same and they adopted a different game plan. I understand what I’m saying is very risky. And it’s dangerous. But when your attributes stack up better than your opponent’s attributes – when you’re a little bit faster than your opponent, stronger, better technical ability, better footwork, better defence – I don’t understand why you don’t get into exchanges with them straight away.

“By the analogy I’ve just laid out, if you’re a bit quicker, you’re going to get there first. If you’re a bit more explosive, the shots are going to be more damaging. He just didn’t take that approach and that’s on him and the team.”

Question: What about Dubois’ jab though? Do you think once he felt the jab and couldn’t get past the jab that he was surprised by the power and the speed? 

A: “I do think it is a very strong weapon of Daniel Dubois but he wasn’t even really interested in the jab, it was the right hand he was letting go straight away. There was no warm up or feel out period in the fight, it was just ‘come out and let my hands go.’ Joshua came out and started fencing and when you start fencing with this jab, if your jab isn’t sharp and strong to start the fight off with, you’re going to let someone in. This is a weapon, this is not a rangefinder, this is not a toy. This has got to be used as a weapon in the early part of a fight.

“Lennox Lewis used to do it brilliantly. Lennox Lewis’ jab, he would come out and he would let you know who’s bossing them first. Boom boom, straight down the pipe and then he would ease his way in. Then the odd jab would be a speed jab and it would be a variation of jab. But at the start of a fight, everything has to be sharp and fast. You do not want to be counted and get caught cold at the start of a fight.”

Question: People are now saying Dubois reminds them of Mike Tyson and he will dominate the division. Can you see the Tyson similarities?

A: “There’s only one comparison, mate – they both wear black shorts. It stops there. There’s nothing else. Absolutely not.”

Question: Last time we spoke you said “Dubois has been a revelation under Don Charles.” How much credit should go to Dubois’s trainer and his father?

A: “I do think Don Charles has added an awful lot to his game. Don Charles has added more to his game mentally and stability wise. I don’t think there is much more you can add to someone like Daniel Dubois’ actual boxing IQ. He doesn’t have much boxing IQ. He’s a really strong big boy and he’s a good athlete. He’s a little bit robotic, so you’re not going to turn him into Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali). It’s not going to happen but what Don Charles has done, and I rate Don Charles, Don does the same with all his fighters. He adds to them and whether it’s mentally or whatever, he makes them better fighters all round. It’s not with technical ability. It’s the psychology behind it, it’s the mental fortitude and strength that he adds.”

Question: It’s interesting you should say that because Ben Whittaker said he knows Daniel Dubois from his Team GB days and he said Dubois used to get so nervous he used to say, ‘I don’t know if I can fight today.’ But in the lead up to this, he didn’t seem nervous really, did he?

A: “Don’s given him that confidence, that’s what Don’s given him. You’ll find a lot of fighters in the amateur code, Carl Froch used to be similar. What happens is, when they go pro, when you’re an amateur and you’re boxing on the GB set up, if you’re not one of the favoured GB boys, you’re not going to be looked after as much as the others. I know that because that’s what it was like when I was on the GB squad. I’m talking about my own experience with the GB squad. I know the GB boys are a lot better looked after now because Robert McCracken, in my opinion, is the single greatest amateur boxing coach in history. What he’s done at GB is amazing. Without a shadow of a doubt, Robert McCracken is an amazing boxing coach. What he’s achieved with various styles, you’ve got to remember this guy builds Anthony Joshua from scratch and took him to the very top of the game, the pinnacle of the sport, undisputed unified heavyweight champion of the world and you can’t get any better. He took him from a novice and amateur boxing right the way through to an Olympic gold medal, a world championship silver medalist.

“As I said, we were talking there about how you improve fighters and stuff like that. On the GB, certain fighters got looked after a lot more than others. I don’t want to say favoured, but the training and the cycle is a bit different. How they’re looked after is different. Whether he’s padded or whether he’s looked after, it was all relevant to each and every fighter. With someone like Don Charles, you’re working so hard and you gain so much confidence. Daniel Dubois might have been on the GB squad, like Ben Whittaker said, and he might have had no confidence because no coach has really shown him any love. No coach has really looked after him. No one’s put an arm around him and gone, ‘you know what son, you’ve got all the ability. You can do this, you can do that.’ He’s gone to Don Charles and guess what? This guy has put his arm around him. He’s looked after him. He’s made him feel special. And then he’s put him through the milling training as well so he no longer doubts himself. He has so much confidence in his fitness and his ability that he’s going for it.

“On Saturday, Daniel Dubois did not go out and start that first round like a man who was going to get tired. Daniel Dubois started that fight like a man who’s like, ‘I can do this for 12 rounds. Watch me go to work.’ Yeah, yeah. He had no doubts about his fitness. He had no doubts about his game plan. He just went out there and he executed. No one else has put that confidence into him besides himself with the hard work he’s done and Don Charles with the hard work he’s put him through.”

Question: Zhilei Zhang called out Dubois after this win over AJ. Joseph Parker is there, if you’re Daniel Dubois, what do you do now? Do you wait for the Usyk vs Fury rematch?

A: “If you’re talking about who deserves the shot and who should he fight, if Anthony Joshua is not doing that, and believe you me, he’s got every right to call that rematch. Anthony Joshua didn’t have to take that fight. Understand that Anthony Joshua’s the draw going into that fight.” It’s a risky fight to take for AJ, obviously. “It’s a crazy fight to take, but I get why he took it.  And I understand why he took it, and I still think he should have won. But he didn’t. Make no mistake, rematch clauses are given when the A side demands it and it’s only fair. Without a shadow of a doubt.”

Do you think Dubois felt a bit disrespected?  He was the champion, coming into the ring second. “I mean, you’ve got to think he’s been handed the belt in his hand without fighting for it. He hadn’t won the fight, but at the same time, he’s fighting one of the best heavyweights in the world. And he’s won and now he feels like a champion and so he should. Daniel Dubois should feel like a world champion because he’s beat Anthony Joshua, who in my opinion is a top three heavyweight in the world. So, he’s out of the top three now. Daniel Dubois is in the top three because you have to take a fighter on how he goes. He’ll have all the confidence in the world.

“As for his next step forward, if Anthony Joshua doesn’t take an immediate rematch, I think there’s only one person in the world of boxing who deserves that shot at Daniel Dubois, and I think that’s Joseph Parker. Nobody in the heavyweight division has taken the people on that Joseph Parker has, nobody. Joseph Parker has faced two bogeymen who no one wants to go near back-to-back. He fought Deontay Wilder and literally beat him up. And then he went in with Zhilei Zhang against all the doubters. Listen, I thought he’d lose twice. I told him that, I was working with him on Saturday.”

I think he likes being written off almost, doesn’t he? “He’s a brilliant ambassador for the sport.” Zhang put him on his backside, didn’t he? “He actually told me Zhang’s the hardest he’s ever been hit in his life. He said Zhang hits so hard. For Joseph Parker, he deserves that date with destiny. And although I don’t know which one to write off going into that one because I’ve written off Joseph Parker in his last two fights, and I’ve written Daniel Dubois off in his last two fights. It’s the battle of the write offs! I don’t know which way to go, but what I will say is, Daniel Dubois and Joseph Parker would make for an amazing fight. This could be Ike Ibeabuchi vs David Tua all over again. They would throw that many punches between the two of them, it would be an absolute slugfest. And it’s mad because both of them aren’t giants for heavyweights. Joseph Parker said to me, ‘I can’t believe you used to make cruiserweight,’ and I was like, ‘it’s all in your backside and legs. Maybe twice the size of mine.’ And he just laughs. I love Joe Parker. I was close to fighting him myself after beating David Haye. And he’s a diamond of a fella. So I wish them both well.

“People have got to understand, the predictions that I make – I think a lot of people take them personally – I’m paid to give an opinion. I’m paid to make a decision. I can’t go on TV and start sitting on fences. That’s not me. I’ll get some right, I’ll get some wrong, but it’s never personal to the fighters. I actually think the world of a lot of the fighters. I think Daniel Dubois is one of the nicest people you could ever wish to meet and I wish him all the success in the world. Same as Joseph Parker. Tyson Fury, I saw him on Saturday, first time I’ve seen him in years. We came face to face, we shook hands and I was made up that it went like that because, I think he understands the more he makes predictions himself, you’re going to get them right, you’re going to get them wrong. It’s not personal and I wish you all the very best in the world, but it is what it is. This is boxing.”

Question: Don Charles said AJ looked like AJ had been hypnotised before the fight and Simon Jordan said he looked haunted…did you pick up on that or is that 20/20 hindsight from them?

A: “I think that’s a little bit unfair to say that he looked hypnotised. He wasn’t a rabbit caught in the headlights. He turned up to a fight wanting to box. When you’re going into these fights, in every division, you come in and there’s usually a feel out period. You’re going to see what each other has got. You’re going to test each other’s jab. Daniel Dubois, he turned up for a fight. He didn’t want a feel out period. He didn’t want anything. He just put it on you. And that takes a lot of balls to do that. But he did it and Joshua was fencing, he wanted to have a boxing match. He’ll learn massively from it. I know he’ll learn, because I spoke to him. It’s a harsh lesson to learn and I feel for him.

“But listen, there’s always got to be a winner and a loser and they’re both absolutely amazing ambassadors for the sport. And I really like both of them. Joshua is my mate, I go way back with him so obviously I’m gutted he lost. But at the same time, the belt stays in England. Popularity stays in England. And, if anything, it makes the rematch even bigger, because history between two fighters always sells.”

Question: Carl Froch talks about the ‘silk pyjama effect’…do you think the hunger is still there for AJ?

A: “What Joshua has in the bank is no one’s business and no one’s guess because no one really knows. I mean, everyone’s looking on Google to see what someone’s worth, whatever it says, double that because the boy’s smart and he’s invested and he’s done really well. I don’t know what he’s worth and I don’t really care. One thing I will say, and I’ll stand up for him, the last thing Anthony Joshua has is the silk pyjama effect. I’ve been out, I’ve watched him in training camp in Texas with the likes of Derrick James. I’ve watched how he works, how diligent he is with his preparation. He’s one of the best athletes I’ve ever seen in heavyweight boxing, if not the best as an athlete and a specimen. What’s happened is, he’s been shook to his boots in that first round and that right hook would have knocked out a horse. To get up and carry on fighting after getting nailed so hard, you’ve seen the stills and the slows on the shot. It’s on the button. It’s bang on the button. There’s nothing wrong with Anthony Joshua’s chin because he got up.”

He’s never been knocked out before. Has he? “No one’s put him asleep.  He was nailed and it was flush on the chin. And it’s not nice, so I think the ‘silk pyjama effect,’ that’s a tired, easy analogy to give. He gets in there. He’s in great shape. Now, what people don’t know who are listening to this and who are going to watch this is, if 2.5lbs of square pressure hits anyone on the button, you go down. Don’t get me wrong, everyone’s buttons are on different points. Some have got it on the temple, some have got it on the forehead, some have got it on the chin. But 2.5lbs of square pressure hits your button, you go down. That’s not my opinion, that’s science. So the only thing that gets you up is fitness. How fit are you? And as you know, getting fit happens in those 14 weeks before the fight, during the camp. Anthony Joshua gets off the floor after getting hit with sledgehammers, mate and to get up like that shows you how fit he was. To be that fit, you’ve got to work so hard in camp.

“Silk pyjamas don’t even come into the equation. Fighters, when we agree that wage and when we agree that money and we sign that contract, the money’s coming regardless, win, lose or draw. You know when a fighter comes out and he’s got silk pyjamas on. You just see it, they’re not fit, they’re not in shape, they’re hiding. Joshua never hides and he faces everyone and anyone. So I think that’s an easy analogy.”

Question: The event as a whole was incredible, wasn’t it? Obviously, Riyadh Season in Wembley, Liam Gallagher there, Saudi National Anthem was a bit of a weird one. What did you make of it? 

A: “I don’t see what the problem is, they put the events on, they’ve got a right to do whatever they want with it. You’ve got to understand that what Turki Al-Sheikh is doing, taking boxing back where it belongs. You have to remember, the most famous face that’s ever lived, guess what he is? He’s a boxer. His name’s Muhammad Ali. There is not a more famous face in world history than Muhammad Ali, in my opinion. And I’d even go as far as to say, the most famous face in the world right now is a boxer, and I would say that’s Mike Tyson. I don’t think there’s a more famous face in the world right now. That tattoo on his face, that symbol on his face. It’s known everywhere, there’s not a part of the world you can’t go, anywhere he touches, no matter where, how poor, how rich, everyone knows Mike Tyson, and boxing has slipped down the pecking order so much over the years because of the politics, the agendas of managers, promoters, it’s ridiculous how it’s been dragged through the mud for years. This guy has come along and he’s single handedly saving boxing. He’s taken us back up the pecking order. He’s taken us back up the echelon and I give him so much credit.

“Now, I don’t gain any. You don’t see me. I’m not in Saudi. I’ve been to Saudi before. I’ve worked out there. I’ve done it. I’m just telling you how it is. I’m so happy the fighters are making record breaking money. I’m so happy that the best are facing the best because my sport, we’re seeing what it can be, what it can generate. We’ve missed this for so long. What Turki Al-Sheikh is doing, no one has ever done before, the closest anyone ever did was Harold Smith when he embezzled money in 1981 from the Wells Fargo bank. I’ve read a book on this guy. It would slip the mind before, but now it’s come back after a quick look. I’ve read the book on this guy and it was amazing what he’d done.

“Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard, they all loved him because he would always pay them more than Don King and Bob Arum. And he gave them the money the day after the fight. None of these other guys could do it and they were like, ‘why? We all love Harold Smith.’ He’s doing great things. There was no snideness about him. There was no backdoor stuff. What he said he was going to pay you, you’d get. But when it was Don King or whoever else in the day, it was like, ‘right, there’s your purse.’ And then all of a sudden you get your fight, you have your fight and you go, ‘I’ve only got three quarters of this, that’s not what I agreed.’ And they’re like, ‘well no, I had to pay for your camp, pay for your tax.’ And this Harold Smith was just giving you the whole lot. Don King and Bob Arum will be able to tell you. They know whenever you speak to those guys, they’ll know, read up the book. The book is an amazing story. He was embezzling bank money from Wells Fargo and he was using it over the weekends and he was getting it, putting it back, getting it, putting it back. And it went on for years. It was unbelievable what he’d done, but he’d done it obviously illegally and he made the best fights. He made great fights all over the world. Harold Smith, he made massive fights and His Excellency is doing it now, but he’s doing it legally and he’s now in a position where, in modern day sports, I think Frank Warren and Eddie Hearn are basically the Bob Arum and the Don King. They’ve got some of the best fighters. I mean, they’ve obviously got the brilliant Al Haymon over the other side, but they’re on Amazon, and his fighters, they’re just not out there. We’re losing them, really, as fighters. It’s so sad. Like what’s going on with Tank? Tank Davis should be one of the faces of boxing. We’re not seeing them. They’re not fighting enough. So, what Turki’s doing is fantastic.”

It is great for boxing. Even all the undercards now. They’ve gone up a level haven’t they? “That undercard on Saturday, (Anthony) Cacace vs (Josh) Warrington. It was a brilliant fight from start to finish.”

Question: Hamzah Sheeraz I was going to mention. How high can he go? Where’s his ceiling?

A: “I think that boy’s the British Tommy Hearns. He’s powerful, he’s long, he’s lean. I doubted him after I watched the Bradley Sheekte fight. I wasn’t sure he was cut out for this. But then when I actually met him in person, because I’d never met him at this stage. Then when I actually met him in person, I thought, ‘oh my word, you are the biggest 150 pound fighter in history.’ Like the only one who’s close to him was Vernon Forrest many years ago. He’s bigger than Vernon Forrest and I was like, ‘Vernon Forrest used to be huge.’ Rest his soul, he’s not here anymore. 

“I thought he’s (Sheeraz) too big for 160. He just beat a former European Champion in Tyler Denny. He got a harsh lesson. It’s one thing facing a field of cash. It’s another thing getting in the ring with someone like Hamzah Sheeraz, who is technically very good, believes in himself and can wallop. And when you’ve got such height advantages and reach advantages like that. Like I say, Hamzah Sheeraz I’m really excited about. I think he’s a quality fighter.”

He skipped out the whole amateur scene, didn’t he? Turned pro at 18. “I don’t blame him, because like I said before, sometimes your face just doesn’t fit, but if you’re good enough, the cream will always rise, in my opinion. And I get the thing with amateur boxing and stuff like that.

“You’ve got to understand, in amateur boxing, the only thing worth waiting around for, in all honesty, is if you’re guaranteed to be on that podium squad for the Olympic Games. The Olympic Games is the mother of all mothers. It’s like, this is the baby, this is the one. You go somewhere and win an Olympic gold medal, cash in. Your career’s made, isn’t it? Your life’s made.”

Question: Ben Whittaker and Sheeraz, they’re kind of at a similar stage of their careers. Who do you see as being the one with more potential? 

A: “I’m a big admirer of both. I think Ben Whittaker is a brilliant fighter. I think he’s so classy, so very good. I don’t like the hate towards the kid and I don’t get where the offence comes from. Everyone’s offended by what he’s doing in boxing. Listen mate, if you can do it, do it.  There’s a fighter there, he wants to punch you in the face. Let him do it, why are you offended? The guy who he’s facing is not offended. Why are you offended? And it’s embarrassing really, I think he’s a brilliant prospect and that’s what he is for now. He’s still a prospect. Hamzah Sheeraz is now a European champion. He’s no longer a prospect. He’s a champion. He’s levelled up, but for someone like Ben Whittaker, I think the sky’s the limit. Don’t get me wrong, the challenges are going to get stiffer and they’re going to get sterner. I think we saw that last time out when he’s forced to go rounds and the guy’s durable. But as things go on, I think he’s got World Champion written all over him. And people can say what they want. Well, actually, everyone’s going to be saying now, ‘wow Tony Bellew, you said something about a non-Matchroom fighter.’ Well, I really like Ben Whittaker. I think he’s a very good fighter. I do think he’s going to have to change that style as he goes through the levels. Because you’re not going to get away with that at European level.”

What about a Eubank Jr vs Ben Whittaker match? Can we see that happening? Could we see that? “It’s a great kind of fantasy matchup, but I don’t think Eubank Jr wants anything to do with it.” Even though Whittaker has got 3 million Instagram followers, it would be a big, big fight money wise, potentially? “Instagram followers don’t fight.” You know, if you look at Eubank Jr’s next opponent, no one’s really heard of him, have they? “Who’s he fighting?” It’s Kamil Szerementa. “For Eubank Jr, you’ve gotta give the kid his credit, because it is a bit of a freak show or a gimmick, but he still gets in there and fights some brilliant fighters. He’s been in there with some really good fighters. Okay, he’s timed it right and he’s done really well, but ultimately, it’s paying out for him. And once again, you know, he’s good for boxing because he drags in a different crowd. He’s not a bad looking kid, is he? You know what I mean? So he’s doing alright. Fair play to him.”

Question: Did you see the interview with Joe Joyce? He kind of seemed to lose focus halfway through the interview. It was a bit worrying. He kind of just forgot what was going on. 

A: “Did he? I think the world of big Joe Joyce. I always went against Derek (Chisora) fighting him until that (Zhilei) Zhang fight happened. And then I was all with Derek facing him, but that fight, I worry for Joe. I really do worry for Joe because, I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again – his greatest asset was his durability and it’s gone now. That was his greatest offence. That’s the thing that won him the fight with Daniel Dubois. That’s the thing that won his fight against Joseph Parker.

“They’ve hit him with the absolute kitchen sink and couldn’t put a dent in him. And once that durability goes, he’s now gone. They’re going to use him as a stepping stone, which is very sad. And I’m gutted because as a fella, he’s a lovely fella, big Joe.”

Question: Let’s talk about golf briefly, because you had an albatross at Wentworth. Congratulations for that. That’s very rare to do.

A: “I did yeah. Mateo Manassero congratulated me. What a guy, what a player. Lovely to walk around with him. Mateo was unbelievable. And it’s crazy because after playing with Matteo on Wednesday, I was down with Rory McIlroy ringside on Saturday so I’ve been very lucky to be around the golfing royalty at the moment. Both are amazing. I’m a huge fan of the golfers. I think Rory McIlroy is one of the greatest golfers of all time, without a doubt. We hope he can win another major because he’s gone a while without one. It has been a while, but it’s only a matter of time. As I say, the cream always rises. The great thing about someone like Rory McIlroy, he’s always there or thereabouts, and that is so hard to do. Like, Matteo Manassero said to me, ‘he’s unbelievable.’ He thinks he’s the best he’s ever played with.”

Question: Where does your albatross rank in terms of your own personal, when achievements, as of course you’ve been a World Champion? 

A: “It’s not going to get any higher for me. I should have just literally just given my clubs to someone who was in the audience because there were hundreds up to the left and right and then there were thousands of people at Wentworth. And I just think to myself, when that goes in, I need to just go right, ‘take that bag, I’m done.’ Thank you. And just walk away. Salute the crowd with my Robbie Keane rollover and just leave it alone. But I’m addicted. The bug’s got me. Do you know what actually, everyone thinks that was my first hole, thinking I’m going round in like a record score. That was actually my third hole. I started on the 17th. And on the 17th, I duffed my tee shot and went two yards off the tape to everyone’s, actually no one laughed at me.

“Everyone stayed silent. And then I walked onto the 18th and hit a belter drive. And I had 215 (yards) into the pin over water. This was on the 18th and I’ve hit a seven wood. It’s on my social media. 215 (yards) into the crowd and it landed on the green. I was on the green in two shots on a par five on the 18th with hundreds watching, cheering, going nuts. And I threw my hands in the air, ‘I can play golf!’ and it landed on the green. I’ve only got up to the green and three putted so I got a par. But then went to the first and pulled off the albatross. I couldn’t believe it. The first I went with is a par four for the pros, but it’s a par five for the amateurs. It was a long par four, so I’ve hit a belter drive, and then I had 185 (yards) into the flag. I’ve picked up the seven iron out of the bag, thanks to my caddy Locksmith, who’s part of us at Lock & Tee. And it was his advice to go and get that seven iron for the 185 shot. I thought it was not going to be enough. Slight bit of help with the wind behind us. I’ve hit this seven iron, and Matteo and Locky just went, ‘it’s all over it.’ And I thought, they were just pumping up my confidence. They’re trying to keep me confident, because when I’m confident, I can play a bit. When I start making a couple of bad shots, it spins, it snowballs, and I make more bad shots and mistakes. Anyway, when they said it was all over, I thought, I heard the crowd at the top by the pin. ‘Ooh, ooh.’ And everyone just went nuts. Drinks were going. People were jumping around. There were literally thousands around the hole and it was just unbelievable.

“So yeah, I’ll never achieve anything like that again, but I’m going to keep playing. I’m going to keep hitting for the clouds and see how it goes.”

Question: In terms of other boxers, have you got any other boxers that you think would be good golfers? Or have you played with anyone? 

A: “I know Josh Kelly is a very good golfer. Adam Booth, the coach, is a very good golfer. I’m sure Tyson Fury can play, I’m told. I wouldn’t mind a round with Tyson Fury. I’m told he’s a good golfer.  Callum Smith and Liam Smith can play so I’m told. So they can play, they’ll be good golfers.”

What about AJ if he hangs up the gloves eventually? Will you teach him how to play golf? “You know what, funny enough, we were talking about it a while back and he was saying, he’d beat me at golf. He saw me playing golf and he said, ‘you’re addicted. I’ll just come and whoop you.’ And I thought, ‘that’s not very nice. You f*****g big dope.’ But he just laughed at me and we had a good laugh and a joke. He doesn’t play but he reckons he could beat me. And I said, ‘don’t worry. Don’t get me wrong, it won’t be hard, I’m not very good. I’m persistent if I’m anything.'” Single figure handicap is your goal, isn’t it? “That’s my goal, mate. Single figures. And I will get there. I won’t stop until I get there. Well, I’m not going to stop no matter what, but I won’t stop until I get to that single figure.”

Question: A quick word about Everton then, that there’s a potential 400 million buyout, which could be good news. The guy who’s trying to buy the club is the owner of Roma, isn’t he? 

A: “Yeah, Dan Friedkin. He knows football. He’s a very good businessman. I’m sure he knows what he’s doing, we’ll have to see. With already having the experience at Roma, it can only be a good thing. So, he’s obviously not afraid to make decisions as well, because when you’re sacking the likes of Jose Mourinho, and people like that to make a change, and I think it was (Daniele) De Rossi who he’s had there as well, and he shipped him out quite quickly. When things aren’t going right, he’s not slow to act and I like that. I like that. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want someone to panic when things are going wrong. I need you to believe, but ultimately, you can’t be hesitant because once it’s gone, it’s gone. And we are a huge football club. People might laugh and joke about Everton, but Everton Football Club, you’d have to remember, are one of the founding six of the Premier League. We were one of the big six when the Premier League got formed. And that’s been forgotten and left to the side because we’ve been on such a dreadful run.”

But still never been relegated though, nonetheless. “I think Everton now are the longest ever remaining top flight team, so we’re a huge club and I think we can only go on. Someone like Mr Friedkin’s not going to be coming into Everton without a plan. He’s got a plan. And I’m sure the new stadium, the new plans, the team, the whole ethos of the club is going to change under him. He’s not someone who’s coming in like your triple seven owners who’s looking to get us, spin us and sell us on. And you know what they’re coming in for, the stadium’s all there, everything’s ready to go. Everton start the season next season in the Premier League with that new stadium. With new owners, it could be good. It’s got the possibility of being huge and we’ve got the possibility of challenging the big boys because the revenue it’s going to bring in this PSR stuff has to stop. In my opinion, I think it’s ridiculous. For years and years, no one’s been bothered about what a football club spends and what’s coming back in. Why are you changing it now? It’s like they’ve let everyone get so far ahead and then they’ve gone right we’re going to slap the rules on now so nobody can catch (Manchester) United, no one can catch (Manchester) City. No one can catch Liverpool. No one can catch Arsenal. Did you forget these guys have done a s**tload of money? And spent fortunes, like Chelsea bought the league how many times? Literally bought the league. Roman Abramovich just bought everyone and anyone. And why are you changing it now? It’s unfair. Because I think it’s disgraceful what’s happening to Newcastle. They should be allowed to buy whoever they want. As long as a personal guarantee can be given by the owner of a club. As long as the personal guarantee stands up. That’s all that should be done. But this PSR nonsense has got to stop because you’re killing football.”

It almost became a meme, didn’t it? Like, someone gets sent off or whatever and there’s 10 point deductions to Everton. “They made an example of us as usual. The Scousers. And it always happens to Scousers first.”

Question: Last round. Just a one word answer round if you could…boxers vs boxers. Who would win in their primes?

Mike Tyson vs Oleksandr Usyk:

A: “Mike Tyson.“

Muhammad Ali vs Tyson Fury: 

A: “Muhammad Ali.”

Anthony Joshua vs George Foreman:

A: “George Foreman. The greatest puncher boxing’s ever seen, ever, pound for pound. Judge a puncher by who he’s knocked out. So don’t ever tell me that Deontay Wilder is the biggest puncher the world’s ever seen. Who’s he knocked out?”

Daniel Dubois vs Lennox Lewis:

A: “It’s Lennox. You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone. I say Joe Calzaghe is the greatest British fighter of all time. But (Lewis), he’s the greatest. He and Lennox are literally so close. Lennox Lewis, prime Lennox Lewis, phenomenal. Avenged all his losses, was a phenomenal fighter, technically perfect. If anything, Lennox Lewis actually helps with the evolution of the game. He shows you what safety boxing is like, but also with a brutal finish, because Lennox was so technically good. A brilliant chess player in the boxing ring. Keep you on the jab, keeps you honest, but then breaks you down enough to know when it’s time to take that final bit. Don’t get me wrong, Emmanuel Steward helps massively when he comes into the fold because Emmanuel Steward’s the one who gives him a slap. Emmanuel Steward is the one who tells him to finish it. And every fighter needs that coach who he respects and listens to. Lennox Lewis had the greatest trainer of all time in Emmanuel Steward, in my opinion. You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone. I remember this country not being behind Lennox Lewis. I remember this country like it was all about big Frank and I love Frank Bruno, Frank’s a British icon and legend, but we didn’t back Lennox enough. I don’t think Lennox got enough love from us.”

Do you think part of that was because he represented Canada at the Olympics? “Yeah, but you’ve got to understand, he was born here. British born and bred. Okay, he’s gone and lived in Canada for a large period of his life. And he’s ended up being picked for the international team. What do you want the boy to do? Do you want him to say he’s got to go back to England? He went on and did what he did. He won Olympic gold for Canada and he’s an amazing fighter and truly a British iconic sporting legend. Legend of the game.”